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Mama Deb
mamadeb
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Mama Deb [userpic]
As I finish a last bit of chometz coffee

(Coffee isn't chometz, but I bought it at the local kosher bagel store, which *is*. I didn't want to finish it there because it was very crowded and people needed the table and there's only a limited time to eat breakfast - only until 10:28.)

I watched The Tudors last night, and.

1. Jonathan Rhys Meyers is, of course, very pretty. But the 21st C hair cut, and the very much too dark hair - Henry was a strawberry blond - were problems. But it is nice to see Henry as he actually was for much of his life - a handsome athlete.

2. Yeah, okay. Boobies. *yawn*

4. He called the daughter of the Duke of Buckingham "Lady Buckingham." No, and no, and again no. Daughters of peers don't get Lady Title. Wives of peers do (and Duchesses don't. They get "your grace.") Daughters get Lady Firstname Lastname, and Lastname is usually not the title. For that matter. Elizabeth Blount was *never* Lady Blount. She was the daughter of SirJohn Blount, and her title would be Mistress. "Lady Blount" would be her mother. Yeah, it's nitpicky, but I'd have thought the producers would know these details.

5. I missed Blood Ties for this, so it was kinda cool knowing that Henry Fitzroy was being conceived on Showtime and helping solve supernatural mysteries on Lifetime. "You're carrying a vampire!"

6. Preparations for Field of Cloth of Gold - way cool.

7. Henry's genuine problems about being married to Katherine of Aragon - yes. Very much so. Even though I have no idea why he, a more than decent theologian in his own right, would refer to Vayikra - Leviticus - as "gospels". The Papal dispensation was also kinda...funny...in reality, so, yeah. Qualms. And no heir? If Mary had married the Dauphin, her husband would have been King of England, even if he had no power. Philip of Spain was titled King of England during their marriage. And names have power. It was a real worry. And, honestly, he was right about his dynasty. It lasted only one more generation, ending with Elizabeth. His sister's grandson took the throne.

8. Sir Thomas More - yay!

9. They had Queen Katherine praying in English. I don't understand why at all - it was obvious she was praying, and even if people didn't realize she was saying Ave Maria in the proper Latin, that she was praying obsessively would still be perfectly clear. No one in the Roman Catholic church prayed in the vernacular until after Vactican II, right? Certainly, Katherine of Aragon would not.

10. As for the counselor thing - she was widely hailed as one of the most brilliant women around (given the compliment of having a "man's brain") and Henry always left her as regent when he went off to war - and there was at least once that England won a decisive victory because of her leadership. Henry knew and respected this. Given who her mother was, it's not surprising at all.

I'll probably watch next week, but then we will see. It depends on how they treat Anne Boleyn. Note - I just finished listening to a lecture series about Henry VIII, so I'm kinda stuffed with information.

Comments

Most of the common people formed their normal prayers in their mother tongue, but they'd still recite the Ave Maria and other standard prayers in Latin. Someone from the upper classes would likely use Latin at all times.

Katherine's vernacular was Spanish, not English.

Also, naming wasn't as codified as it is now. In 1530, "Your Grace" would likely be used to the King, not to a duke. It's quite possible that a daughter of a duke could have been called My Lady Buckingham.

One of the more heart-wrenching passages in Antonia Fraser's The Six Wives of Henry VIII was about how Katherine (Catherina!) of Aragon spoke no English when they met, and Henry no Spanish, so they attempted to communicate in Latin, but their accents were so very different that they could only write to each other.

I have no reason to believe that she ever prayed in English.

Much like what happened with her daughter later on, except apparently Mary and Phillip had no language in common - maybe poor French.

She still would have prayed in Latin, not Spanish. And they had her praying in ENGLISH.

I'm pretty sure that they might have called a daughter Lady Lastname, but not Lady Title, simply because it *wasn't* her title. And there's no way they'd have called a knight's daughter Lady Lastname. It doesn't work. Of course, I'm not sure Bessie Blount was married, either, until she got pregnant - and that was to Lord Gilbert Tallboys. (I LOVE Wikipedia.)

I think you're right about Lady Title, and I agree that she would have prayed in Latin and certainly not in English - she was quite well-educated for her sex and age, although not as well-educated as Elizabeth I would be (but then, as Johnson said, Elizabeth's learning would have been unusual for even a bishop).

The only reason I can even conjure up for her praying in English is to make a show for the servants (who would not understand Latin, and who could claim she was actually saying something else) that she is indeed praying. But there's absolutely NO historical references showing that she prayed in anything but Latin.

She was saying a standard prayer - "Hail, Mary." Everyone would recognize that.

Yes, they would.

Have you read Philippa Gregory's books about the Tudors? I just read "The Constant Princess" recently and enjoyed it very much. It's about Catherine of Aragon. "The Queen's Fool" was interesting as well - it was about Princess Mary and one of her ladies, who was a secret (and not very knowledgeable about it) Jew.
Her books may, for all I know, be full of inaccuracies, but they're good reads. The other ones that I know about are "The Other Boleyn Girl" and "The Virgin's Lover."

I own "The Other Boleyn Girl" but was unable to read more than a couple of pages.