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Mama Deb
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Mama Deb [userpic]
Last Night's Supernatural

I am...confused.

Supernatural, like most dark fantasy/horror media, inhabits a basically Christian universe - very Catholic, from what I can see. I don't think other types of Christianity use holy water. That's why crosses and holy water and Christian exorcism words work on the demons.

Dean uses these things all the time. Dean knew that the water Bobby threw on him was holy water. He *knows* holy water is effective on demons. He knows this empirically.

How can he know that holy water exists and not believe in holiness itself? How can he know that there is darkness and not believe there is light - where does he think the tools to fight it come from? How does he think holy water happens? (How DOES holy water happen, btw? Is it just tap water blessed by a priest or are there rules about it?)

If there are demons, there must be angels - especially since Christian mythos has it that demons *were* angels who rebelled. Okay, Dean isn't a supergenius, but he's not stupid and he does employ logic on occasion. If there wasn't a heaven, his arsenal wouldn't work.


As an Atheist I can understand it. It's the basic philosophical question - is 'good' inherently 'good' or is it only 'good' because god tell us it is? Simplistic example - Thou shalt not murder. Why? Because it is one of the Ten Commandments. Or because from experience we know that murder takes a life and destroys the people that life touched.

Dean has blessed water himself and made it Holy Water, but clearly Dean does not see himself as a Holy Man. He is guilty of glutton and lust, he uses the Lord's name in vain, he steals - about the only Commandment he hasn't broken is Honor Thy father.

Dean believes in a pragmatic way that Holy Water and other 'Catholic' rituals work because he's seen it. The same way he believes in Smith and Wesson. He hasn't seen a lot of god's grace. I'm pretty sure in time he'll start believing once the angel gives him more evidence to base that belief on. Now, is that real faith? I don't know. I don't have faith. I haven't seen much to indicate Dean has faith either. That will be an interesting point to follow this season.

You also made a point I've been thinking about for the entire series. Why Christian mythos? If my life depended on tradition and ritual I'd be checking out every denomination and culture. Most of them are a lot older than Christianity and all of them have 'supernatural' lore.

How can one bless something and make it holy if one doesn't believe? That...breaks my brain big time. To me, that's sanctifying something (through words or use) to Gd. If you don't believe in Gd, then the act is meaningless.

It's Christian mythos because pretty much all horror *is*, from what I've seen. It's also the one most familiar to the audience.

(no subject) - (Anonymous)

I'm a bit confused. I wasn't talking about the holiness or the sanctity of the person doing the sanctification - I'm aware that even a non-Catholic can baptize a child.

But - that leads to a question. Can a non-Christian baptize a child? Say, a new mother is dying and the only person around is Jewish. If the mother begs her to baptize the child, and she accedes, would that be valid? (I mean, I could very much see comforting a dying woman, but I know it would be, for me, getting the child's forehead wet.)

Because if that's true (and if so, that breaks my brain big time), then, yes, I can see how a non-believer could make holy water.